Modified:
13 Jul 2008
by Dhc

Vote totals:

Yes:

60%

No:

40%

Neutral:

0%

 
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Debatewise debate DEBATE: SCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.

Scotland is moving away from the rest of the United Kingdom. Is it now time for them to formally break ties and become an independent entity?





Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


Semi-independence is unsatisfactory


Fiscal powers and economic control remain at Westminster. Independence will allow Scotland to cut business taxes (like Ireland) to promote economic growth.
Some of the decisions taken at Westminster are not always in Scotland’s best interests, for example the positioning of Trident submarines at Rosyth which put Scotland under threat from terrorist attacks in reprisals to descisions Westminister made.
The argument against states that the differences between Scotland and England are typical of any nation in the world.
This argument is fundamentally flawed in that Scotland and England are not one nation but two.
Scotland is not a region of England like London or Newcastle but is in fact a seperate country. It seems to be acceptable to call scotland a region but not england i.e." regions in england itself" why is that? It is also assumed that the capital city of the UK is London. There is no basis for this. Indeed, the UK does not have a capital city.
There are numerous reports that show that Scotland would be economically vastly more wealthy than any western european country including England and yet the lies about fiscal black holes continue. See here:
http://tinyurl.com/6dha2o
for proof or go look at the mccrone report.
Scotland who also not waste money on big defence projects so beloved of Tory/Labour. So expenditure per capita would drop.
The cretans in Westminster go through the motions of pretending to have different views, when in fact it is merely a mouthpiece for all things English. It, like Rome has seen its day and although they try to potray themselves as some form of superpower, is just a symbol of the fact that they cant accept where they stand in the pecking order. Scotland on the other hand is a country that has a solid reputation of being innovators and leaders in many areas. We do not need England and never will again. We did them the favour of getting them out of the financial mess they were in during the seventies, when the IMF took charge of the basket case economy that forced a three day week, no garbage collections, and RATS ON THE STREETS INSTEAD OF IN WESTMINSTER WHERE THEY LAY.

Scotland’s position is not directly analagous to that of Ireland. Despite Alex Salmond’s economic ‘acumen’, a fiscal black hole has already emerged in the financing of Scottish public goods. Without the economic backbone to support a fiscal contraction like that which led Ireland to the forefront of business growth and innovation in the 1990s, there is little hope for anything but tax hikes. These would, and have already been, concealed in income tax and tweaks to council taxation: the SNP needs to maintain its pedagogic pedigree.
Many of the differences between Scotland and England are typical of any nation in the world, with the exception of the smallest, i.e. it is not unusual for parts of countries to have strong regional identities. This is true even for the different regions in England itself (e.g. London, Newcastle, etc.).


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Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


Other small nation-states like Norway and the Republic of Ireland are successful


An independent Scotland will have the right tools to match its population, nurturing a smaller and more open relationship between nation and state.
If we accept the argument against, then it also should apply to the rest of the world. Therefore, Denmark should form a union with Norway and Sweden, Mexico should team up with the USA and Canada, France and Belgium with Germany and so on.
Gosh, these nations will be so happy to know that UK Unionists have stumbled on the recipe for Nirvana. All you have to do is form a union with the nations surrounding you!
But wait! They haven’t done it! Why not? Are they stupid?
No, it is we Scots who have been stupid for being taken in by the Unionists’ schemes!
So, the natural condition for a nation appears to be one of independence. And to that we should aspire.
Yes, we should model ourselves on the Swiss or Singapore. Small, successful nations who eshewed mergers with larger (and less successful) neighbours.

Scotland is far better disposed in safeguarding its economic interests and territorial sovereignty by remaining a part of the UK, which is larger in size and has greater clout.
The UK was created due to similarities in culture and kingship. By pulling resources together the UK became the prominent power of the 20th century.
Consolidation of states is occurring today. What do think the EU and NAFTA are? The main aim of the EU is to consolidate European nations into one economic and military block to compete with the world. Sound familiar? The British did it 200 years ago.


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Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


Independence would give Scotland clout where it matters


We would get a seat at the UN and in the EU Council of Ministers.
Scottish interests, eg. fisheries and agriculture, are poorly served in Brussels by UK ministers since the rest of the UK has interests incompatible with Scotland’s. For example, the overwhelming majority of fishing is within Scottish waters. Common sense therefore dictates that we should have a seat at the EU table. We don’t, the Scottish minister has to sit outside in the corridor while a Westminster minister negociates. Is that fair?
Scotland’s coastal waters yeild 90% of the UK’s oil yet we pay higher prices at the petrol pumps than do people south of the border. We have no power to haggle about the price our oil is sold for. Is that fair?

Scotland has more influence in Brussels as part of the UK than it could have as an independent state.
The UN is a useless liberal project, much like the League of Nations before it. It has little influence and power, especially considering the emergence of China, India and Brazil as world players, and the increasing role of the EU in world markets. Even so the UK is in the Security council, Scotland if independent will not have that luxury.
How do you know Scotland will be admitted to the EU straight way? The UK is one of the main players, along with France and Germany, and they could easily use their influence to block your membership. Due to the protectionism the EU utilizes Scottish markets would suffer.


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Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


It is time to take the next step.


Britishness is dying. Scotland has its own parliament, its own laws and legal system. National feeling and self-confidence are high.
If the union had succeeded then scottishness would not still exist only north britain would exist the fact that scottishness and scotland still exists as a country in peoples minds shows that declaring a country out of existance does not work unless the country as a whole has agreed to such a move. This has not happened in scotland. People in scotland do not define themselves as north british they define themselves as scottish.

Britishness is not dying.
The Scots themselves would vote against independence if there was a referendum.
The court of final authority for both Scotland and England is the same, i.e. the House of Lords.


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Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


Relations between Scots and English are deteriorating


Independence would free Scotland from dependency and England from resentment. An amicable no-faults divorce is better than a bickering marriage.

Scots should recognise that devolution has put England at a disadvantage, and should press for reforms to the way Westminster works. Satisfying English grievances would put the marriage back on an even keel. Divorce is unnecessary and would be painful


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Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


Scotland needs to lose its dependence culture


Too many Scots are dependent on government for jobs and benefits. The country is addicted to UK subsidies. Enterprising Scots have quit to find jobs elsewhere (Gordon Brown?).
Independence would provide the shock to the system that is required for change. Follow the example of Ireland.

Scottish brains made England what it is. Please don’t leave us.


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Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


Substantiated Devolution


Secession would give the idea of devolution some real substance rather than the token discourse and utterances from London. Increasing local governance, encouraging local politics and therefore making government more accountable and transparent, reducing Scots’ geographical and perceived distance from the centre of governance which will nurture greater democratic participation.



Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


Westminster governmental control is undemocratic.


Westminster governmental control is undemocratic because if Scotland votes for a completely different government from england then they are having a government forced on them that they did not elect.
The people of Scotland were never given a choice in a democratically elected parliament on wether they wanted to be governed from london. This means that westminster is acting as a dictator and not a government.
Even if scots reject the government voted in at westminster they have no choice but to accept what westminster imposes in scotland as they are not equally represented as a country in the westminster parliament. Unless, that is, if the majority of Scottish MPs elected to the Westminster parliament call for independence..



Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


In the end, Independence is about Freedom.


Whilst agreeing with the previous "For" points, and asserting empahtically that Scotland notonly could, but does more than support itself economically, there is a superior argument at stake. Independence is about Freedom to make our own decisions (and yes, mistakes) and to build a new home for our Nation, which is, and always has been distinct, even within the Union. The cause of Freedom is eternal, and fires the imagination and inspires endeavour and effort in every generation. The Union has served its purpose, and its time is over. Advance Caledonia, long live the cause of Freedom



Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


The many hidden subsidies to SE England would end.


There are many hidden subsidies to SE England or London, these would end with independence the money remaining in Scotland instead of bleeding out to support London.
One good example is the BBC: it collects about 400 million a year in revenue from Scotland, but has to cook the books in order to disguise how little it spends in Scotland.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/thebbc/-Myth-of-BBC39s-39made.3719199.jp
With independence that money stays in Scotland and helps builds a media industry, with all its downstream supporting industries.
Right now Scotland is subsidising the SE England media capacity, and the cosy lives of the chaps in Broadcasting House who got their jobs because of their connections to the middle England school and university network.
Another example is the spending on Oxbridge to create top league universities. Spending per student head at Oxford is 3 times that of Edinburgh.
It is a sensible policy to create top league universities: but Oxbridge is in SE England, subsidised by the Scottish taxpayer.
THE BBC Tax (TV licence) is another subsidy to London from Scotland. We know BBC only spends 3% of its budget in sCotland but raises 9% of its revenue here. So lots of (well paid) TV jobs in London.
MOD is also very much run from SE England. That’s where all research establishments are, all the HQs all the senior officers and chief civil servants. A huge boost to economy of SE england.



Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


keep out of stupid US wars


Iraq was/is a disaster. Afghanistan will prove to be as well. There is no objective and no exit stategy.
Scotland needs to determine its own foreign policy. We are peace loving people who object to being used as cannon fodder for US big oil adventures.

By remaining in the UK, Scotland has some influence over world events through the reasonable clout of UK foreign policy. An independent Scotland’s foreign policy will have little effect due to a weak military and an impoverished economy compared to the main powers of the world.


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Debatewise debateSCOTLAND SHOULD CEDE FROM THE UNION.


The Union has served both countries well for 300 years


300 years is a small amount of time, historically speaking. The Union was forced upon the Scots and now they are rejecting it. Their views should be taken seriously.
The empire served Scotland quite well through the 19th Century. The advantages ran out in 1914 when the First War dealt Scotland a huge blow. From there on the Union disadvantaged Scotland. We lost all our locally run companies, Britain fell down international league tables and we have little influence in UK/EU. UK governments only really care about the City of London.

Devolution is a young experiment, and it is too soon to judge it.
Niche nationalist sentiment does not equate to universal rejection.


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